Don't be economic girlie men!

[Sean]

Arnold spoke at the Republican National Convention today. Here is the speech transcribed. All in all, a pretty good speech.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&u=/ap/20040901/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_schwarzenegger_text_1&printer=1


Thank you.

What a greeting!

This is like winning an Oscar! ...As if I would know! Speaking of acting, one of my movies was called "True Lies." It's what the Democrats should have called their convention.

My fellow Americans, this is an amazing moment for me. To think that a once scrawny boy from Austria could grow up to become Governor of California and stand in Madison Square Garden to speak on behalf of the President of the United States that is an immigrant's dream. It is the American dream.

I was born in Europe ...and I've traveled all over the world. I can tell you that there is no place, no country, more compassionate more generous more accepting and more welcoming than the United States of America.

As long as I live, I will never forget that day 21 years ago when I raised my hand and took the oath of citizenship.

Do you know how proud I was? I was so proud that I walked around with an American flag around my shoulders all day long.

Tonight, I want to talk about why I'm even more proud to be an American — why I'm proud to be a Republican and why I believe this country is in good hands.

When I was a boy, the Soviets occupied part of Austria. I saw their tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes. I remember the fear we had when we had to cross into the Soviet sector. Growing up, we were told, "Don't look the soldiers in the eye. Look straight ahead." It was a common belief that Soviet soldiers could take a man out of his own car and ship him off to the Soviet Union as slave labor.

My family didn't have a car — but one day we were in my uncle's car. It was near dark as we came to a Soviet checkpoint. I was a little boy, I wasn't an action hero back then, and I remember how scared I was that the soldiers would pull my father or my uncle out of the car and I'd never see him again. My family and so many others lived in fear of the Soviet boot. Today, the world no longer fears the Soviet Union and it is because of the United States of America!

As a kid I saw the socialist country that Austria became after the Soviets left. I love Austria and I love the Austrian people — but I always knew America was the place for me. In school, when the teacher would talk about America, I would daydream about coming here. I would sit for hours watching American movies transfixed by my heroes like John Wayne. Everything about America seemed so big to me so open, so possible.

I finally arrived here in 1968. I had empty pockets, but I was full of dreams. The presidential campaign was in full swing. I remember watching the Nixon and Humphrey presidential race on TV. A friend who spoke German and English, translated for me. I heard Humphrey saying things that sounded like socialism, which is what I had just left. But then I heard Nixon speak. He was talking about free enterprise, getting government off your back, lowering taxes and strengthening the military. Listening to Nixon speak sounded more like a breath of fresh air.

I said to my friend, "What party is he?" My friend said, "He's a Republican." I said, "Then I am a Republican!" And I've been a Republican ever since! And trust me, in my wife's family, that's no small achievement! I'm proud to belong to the party of Abraham Lincoln, the party of Teddy Roosevelt, the party of Ronald Reagan and the party of George W. Bush.

To my fellow immigrants listening tonight, I want you to know how welcome you are in this party. We Republicans admire your ambition. We encourage your dreams. We believe in your future. One thing I learned about America is that if you work hard and play by the rules, this country is truly open to you. You can achieve anything.

Everything I have my career my success my family I owe to America. In this country, it doesn't make any difference where you were born. It doesn't make any difference who your parents were. It doesn't make any difference if, like me, you couldn't even speak English until you were in your twenties.

America gave me opportunities and my immigrant dreams came true. I want other people to get the same chances I did, the same opportunities. And I believe they can. That's why I believe in this country, that's why I believe in this party and that's why I believe in this President.

Now, many of you out there tonight are "Republican" like me in your hearts and in your beliefs. Maybe you're from Guatemala. Maybe you're from the Philippines. Maybe Europe or the Ivory Coast. Maybe you live in Ohio, Pennsylvania or New Mexico. And maybe just maybe you don't agree with this party on every single issue. I say to you tonight I believe that's not only okay, that's what's great about this country. Here we can respectfully disagree and still be patriotic still be American and still be good Republicans.

My fellow immigrants, my fellow Americans, how do you know if you are a Republican? I'll tell you how.

If you believe that government should be accountable to the people, not the people to the government...then you are a Republican! If you believe a person should be treated as an individual, not as a member of an interest group... then you are a Republican! If you believe your family knows how to spend your money better than the government does... then you are a Republican! If you believe our educational system should be held accountable for the progress of our children ... then you are a Republican! If you believe this country, not the United Nations, is the best hope of democracy in the world ... then you are a Republican! And, ladies and gentlemen ...if you believe we must be fierce and relentless and terminate terrorism ... then you are a Republican!

There is another way you can tell you're a Republican. You have faith in free enterprise, faith in the resourcefulness of the American people ... and faith in the U.S. economy. To those critics who are so pessimistic about our economy, I say: "Don't be economic girlie men!"

The U.S. economy remains the envy of the world. We have the highest economic growth of any of the world's major industrialized nations. Don't you remember the pessimism of 20 years ago when the critics said Japan and Germany were overtaking the U.S.? Ridiculous!

Now they say India and China are overtaking us. Don't you believe it! We may hit a few bumps — but America always moves ahead! That's what Americans do!

We move prosperity ahead. We move freedom ahead. We move people ahead. Under President Bush and Vice President Cheney, America's economy is moving ahead in spite of a recession they inherited and in spite of the attack on our homeland.

Now, the other party says there are two Americas. Don't believe that either. I've visited our troops in Iraq, Kuwait, Bosnia, Germany and all over the world. I've visited our troops in California, where they train before they go overseas. And I've visited our military hospitals. And I can tell you this: Our young men and women in uniform do not believe there are two Americas!

They believe we are one America and they are fighting for it! We are one America — and President Bush is defending it with all his heart and soul!

That's what I admire most about the President. He's a man of perseverance.

He's a man of inner strength. He is a leader who doesn't flinch, doesn't waiver, does not back down. My fellow Americans, make no mistake about it terrorism is more insidious than communism, because it yearns to destroy not just the individual, but the entire international order. The President didn't go into Iraq because the polls told him it was popular. As a matter of fact, the polls said just the opposite. But leadership isn't about polls. It's about making decisions you think are right and then standing behind those decisions. That's why America is safer with George W. Bush as President.

He knows you don't reason with terrorists. You defeat them. He knows you can't reason with people blinded by hate. They hate the power of the individual. They hate the progress of women. They hate the religious freedom of others. They hate the liberating breeze of democracy. But ladies and gentlemen, their hate is no match for America's decency.

We're the America that sends out Peace Corps volunteers to teach village children. We're the America that sends out missionaries and doctors to raise up the poor and the sick. We're the America that gives more than any other country, to fight aids in Africa and the developing world. And we're the America that fights not for imperialism but for human rights and democracy.

You know, when the Germans brought down the Berlin Wall, America's determination helped wield the sledgehammers. When that lone, young Chinese man stood in front of those tanks in Tiananmen Square, America's hopes stood with him. And when Nelson Mandela smiled in election victory after all those years in prison, America celebrated, too.

We are still the lamp lighting the world especially for those who struggle. No matter in what labor camp, they slave no matter in what injustice they're trapped — they hear our call ... they see our light ... and they feel the pull of our freedom. They come here as I did because they believe. They believe in us.

They come because their hearts say to them, as mine did, "If only I can get to America." Someone once wrote — "There are those who say that freedom is nothing but a dream." They are right. It's the American dream.

[Sean]

Continued..


No matter the nationality, no matter the religion, no matter the ethnic background, America brings out the best in people. And as Governor of the great state of California — I see the best in Americans every day ... our police, our firefighters our nurses, doctors and teachers, our parents.

And what about the extraordinary men and women who have volunteered to fight for the United States of America! I have such great respect for them and their heroic families.

Let me tell you about the sacrifice and commitment I've seen firsthand. In one of the military hospitals I visited, I met a young guy who was in bad shape. He'd lost a leg had a hole in his stomach ... his shoulder had been shot through.

I could tell there was no way he could ever return to combat. But when I asked him, "When do you think you'll get out of the hospital?" He said, "Sir, in three weeks." And do you know what he said to me then? He said he was going to get a new leg ... and get some therapy ... and then he was going back to Iraq to serve alongside his buddies! He grinned at me and said, "Arnold ... I'll be back!"

Ladies and gentlemen, America is back! Back from the attack on our homeland — back from the attack on our economy, back from the attack on our way of life. We're back because of the perseverance, character and leadership of the 43rd President of the United States, George W. Bush.

My fellow Americans ...I want you to know that I believe with all my heart that America remains "the great idea" that inspires the world. It's a privilege to be born here. It's an honor to become a citizen here. It's a gift to raise your family here to vote here and to live here.

Our president, George W. Bush, has worked hard to protect and preserve the American dream for all of us. That's why I say ... send him back to Washington for four more years! Thank you, America — and God bless you all!

[chago04]

I really enjoyed this speech, and I liked the no bashing of Kerry. He stuck to good, rather than bad, and I loved it. This will be one of, if not the, highlight of the convention. The I'll be back part was awesome. I'm very excited for this election.

[cokehead1138]

I would just like to say that I put that in my signature before you posted that. :D

And yes, that was hilarious. As was his, "True Lies" remark.

[APlaneTookOff]

hahahahaha, what a mess.

[3ebfan11]

My history teacher is republican and even he was ready to barf after watching arnold say "economic girly men".

[Jesus Earth]

is he the Govinator?

[Brian]

I've read the speech and watched it live. It was a very nice piece of rhetoric which sounded really good, but in reality said very little.

[NCdude2k3]

Kerry's done.

[Padrino]

The new face of the Republican Party...

http://www.nypost.com/photos/pg608302004.jpg


The dearth of A-list celebrities attending the Republican National Convention has unleashed a bevy of B-listers on the town, including former liberal Stephen Baldwin.

"I'm there to support the man I believe has the most faith. That's who I'm voting for," Baldwin told Lisa Marsh. "I believe the next president should be a guy who is being led by God. I believe there is one guy, and that's the guy I want to vote for."

Interestingly, he's found a way to combine his almost 20 years of experience in the movie industry with his new-found faith. Baldwin served as co-producer, director and host of a DVD called "Livin' It," a skateboarding and BMX bike racing film.

"These are edgy, radical skateboarders who put on demonstrations and use them as a platform for evangelism," Stephen explained. "These tattooed, pierced radical guys live a lifestyle that follows the word of God and they present it in a new, edgy way. It's a Christian product that satisfies the purpose of evangelism."
:lol:




Just a joke. Don't freak out. ;)

[The Flicker Fade]

I've read the speech and watched it live. It was a very nice piece of rhetoric which sounded really good, but in reality said very little.

Just like the Bush twins are a very nice piece of ass that look really good, but in reality say way too much? ;)

[cokehead1138]

I don't find the Bush twins attractive at all. Well, the blonde one would maybe be alright if she lost 30lbs.

EDIT: I should say they are godly compared to those "Horse jawed beat up by 50 boxers" Kerry girls.

[The Flicker Fade]

Just a joke. Don't freak out. ;)

I'm freakin' over here! ;)


No fair, you liberals take him back! :p

[APlaneTookOff]

http://www.dailyrecycler.com/blog/2004/08/dont-be-economic-girlie-men.html

:wet:

I was watching Predator the other day, and Arnold throws a knife through a dude, impaling him to a post, and then goes "stick around." I was laughing my balls off.

How am I supposed to take this guy seriously? :wet: :wet:

[Hooby]

I managed to finally read the entire speech....

"I remember watching the Nixon and Humphrey presidential race on TV. A friend who spoke German and English, translated for me. I heard Humphrey saying things that sounded like socialism, which is what I had just left. But then I heard Nixon speak. He was talking about free enterprise, getting government off your back, lowering taxes and strengthening the military. Listening to Nixon speak sounded more like a breath of fresh air.

I said to my friend, "What party is he?" My friend said, "He's a Republican." I said, "Then I am a Republican!" And I've been a Republican ever since!"

Wow....honestly......yikes....Nixon?

[noodlelegs]

yay for arnold.

are you serious about steven baldwin? i couldnt tell if that was a joke or not.


_______________
jonny noodlelegs

get a free ipod (http://www.freeiPods.com/default.aspx?referer=8307901) . yes it really works.

[chago04]

I managed to finally read the entire speech....

"I remember watching the Nixon and Humphrey presidential race on TV. A friend who spoke German and English, translated for me. I heard Humphrey saying things that sounded like socialism, which is what I had just left. But then I heard Nixon speak. He was talking about free enterprise, getting government off your back, lowering taxes and strengthening the military. Listening to Nixon speak sounded more like a breath of fresh air.

I said to my friend, "What party is he?" My friend said, "He's a Republican." I said, "Then I am a Republican!" And I've been a Republican ever since!"

Wow....honestly......yikes....Nixon?
Nixon was not a bad president, except for one mistake. Under Nixon, Vietnam started to come to a close, the economy was up, and the country had many freedoms reinstalled that had been removed durings the 60's and the cold war.

[Hooby]

Really? One Mistake?

I always thought that whole thing with Henry Kissinger and Cambodia was a massively horrible mistake that cost a huge amount of lives......nah, probably not.

Even if you look upon that as his only mistake (which it most certainly is not), it was the largest one the office of the Presidency has ever seen and he resigned for it. He was a horrible President even if you just take that one mistake.

[APlaneTookOff]

I always thought that whole thing with Henry Kissinger and Cambodia was a massively horrible mistake that cost a huge amount of lives......nah, probably not.

Why would you think that?

[Hooby]

bahhh...I don't know.....I guess I'm being a little too hard on the guy :)

[Frusciante]

:yes:
bahhh...I don't know.....I guess I'm being a little too hard on the guy :)

[The Flicker Fade]

So I guess this is our new politics thread? :p

[Padrino]

Excerpt from Arnold Schwarzenegger's Speech

Tonight, I want to talk about why I'm even more proud to be an American — why I'm proud to be a Republican and why I believe this country is in good hands.

When I was a boy, the Soviets occupied part of Austria. I saw their tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes. I remember the fear we had when we had to cross into the Soviet sector. Growing up, we were told, "Don't look the soldiers in the eye. Look straight ahead." It was a common belief that Soviet soldiers could take a man out of his own car and ship him off to the Soviet Union as slave labor.

My family didn't have a car — but one day we were in my uncle's car. It was near dark as we came to a Soviet checkpoint. I was a little boy, I wasn't an action hero back then, and I remember how scared I was that the soldiers would pull my father or my uncle out of the car and I'd never see him again. My family and so many others lived in fear of the Soviet boot. Today, the world no longer fears the Soviet Union and it is because of the United States of America!....

I finally arrived here in 1968. I had empty pockets, but I was full of dreams. The presidential campaign was in full swing. I remember watching the Nixon and Humphrey presidential race on TV. A friend who spoke German and English, translated for me. I heard Humphrey saying things that sounded like socialism, which is what I had just left. But then I heard Nixon speak. He was talking about free enterprise, getting government off your back, lowering taxes and strengthening the military. Listening to Nixon speak sounded more like a breath of fresh air.

I said to my friend, "What party is he?" My friend said, "He's a Republican." I said, "Then I am a Republican!" And I've been a Republican ever since!.....
I like Arnold, and I was actually disappointed to find this out....but he's been soundly debunked.


Schwarzenegger Criticized for Austrian History Gaffes (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/03/schwarzenegger.ap/index.html)

VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- Austrian historians are ridiculing California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger for telling the Republican National Convention that he saw Soviet tanks in his homeland as a child and left a "Socialist" country when he moved away in 1968.

Recalling that the Soviets once occupied part of Austria in the aftermath of World War II, Schwarzenegger told the convention on Tuesday: "I saw tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes."

No way, historians say, challenging Schwarzenegger's knowledge of postwar history -- if not his enduring popularity among Austrians who admire him for rising from a penniless immigrant to the highest official in America's most populous state.

"It's a fact -- as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.

Schwarzenegger, now a naturalized U.S. citizen, was born on July 30, 1947, when Styria and the neighboring province of Carinthia belonged to the British zone. At the time, postwar Austria was occupied by the four wartime allies, which also included the United States, the Soviet Union and France.

The Soviets already had left Styria in July 1945, less than three months after the end of the war, Karner noted.

"Let me tell you this: As a boy, I lived for many years across the street from where the Russians were based in Vienna -- and honestly, I never saw a Russian tank there," retiree Franz Nitsch said Friday. "He said it all on purpose -- and that's bad."

In his convention address, Schwarzenegger also said: "As a kid, I saw the Socialist country that Austria became after the Soviets left" in 1955 and Austria regained its independence.

But Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar and vice rector of Graz University, told Kurier that Austria was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative People's Party and the Social Democratic Party. Between 1945 and 1970, all the nation's chancellors were conservatives -- not Socialists.

What's more, when Schwarzenegger left in 1968, Austria was run by a conservative government headed by People's Party Chancellor Josef Klaus, a staunch Roman Catholic and a sharp critic of both the Socialists as well as the Communists ruling in countries across the Iron Curtain.

Schwarzenegger "confuses a free country with a Socialist one," said Polaschek, referring to East European Communist officials' routine descriptions of their countries as Socialist.

Polaschek saw the moderate Republican governor's recollections at the convention as a tactical move. Schwarzenegger, he said, was "using the old Communist enemy image for Bush's election campaign."

"He did not speak as a historian, after all, but as a politician," Polaschek said.

Norbert Darabos, a ranking official of Austria's opposition Social Democratic Party, sharply criticized Schwarzenegger's "disdain for his former homeland."

"The Terminator is constructing a rather bizarre Austria image," he said.

But many ordinary Austrians seemed to be in a forgiving mood Friday over the gaffes.

"Maybe he has a wrong recollection -- it's so many years since he left," said Wilma Fadrany, 32, a Vienna waitress.

"There must be political reasons for such comments," she said. "You've got to tell the (convention delegates) what they want to hear in order to win them over. Politicians always talk the way it fits into their agenda."

[APlaneTookOff]

Arnold didn't say he saw tanks in Styria, so he could've been elsewhere. There were Soviets elsewhere. The checkpoint he talks about could've been on one of the borders.

Dunno about the Austrian economy after WWII though.

[NCdude2k3]

Say it with me.
Kerry's done.
Kerry's done.

[cokehead1138]

Say it with me.
Kerry's done.
Kerry's done.

Speaking of the devil, has anyone esle read Unfit for Command?

[APlaneTookOff]

no, but I did glance at Kerry's "The New Soldier"

http://johnkerrythenewsoldier.blogspot.com/

what an assfuck.

[cokehead1138]

no, but I did glance at Kerry's "The New Soldier"

http://johnkerrythenewsoldier.blogspot.com/

what an assfuck.

Oh yeah. Haven't read through it, but i have it on my computer...just don't like reading on a monitor for that long.

It's funny that he was the one that gave himself the purple hearts--two of them from SELF INFLICTED wounds. I wonder how much they are paying that guy that claims Kerry saved his life, because in reality, John Kerry was the one that left him behind...Eh, guess he has the purple heart to go back and get him.

That books sells for over $500 most places, and it is fucking HILARIOUS that all the democrats are trying to buy them up.

[Brian]

Stop slandering Kerry.

If you want to disagree with his policies and discuss why you don't think he should be president, that's fine. But enough with the merit-less attacks.

That's what the swift vets are for.

[The Flicker Fade]

Stop slandering Kerry.

If you want to disagree with his policies and discuss why you don't think he should be president, that' fine. But enough with the merit-less attacks.

That's what the swift vets are for.

Having read the website in question over, I respectfully submit that it is no different than the anti-Bush list you started a thread over last week.

You'll remember I wasn't in favor of that list, but that doesn't mean I thought it was unfair to post it.

Every extreme point of view should have the opportunity to be discussed... Christ, we have links in other threads to articles claiming it wasn't a hijacked plane that hit the Pentagon. And especially because the most extreme anti-Bush views have already been discussed... in depth.

[chago04]

Eh, guess he has the purple heart to go back and get him.

Three of them in fact....... :duh: :wet: :thdown:

[APlaneTookOff]

It's funny that he was the one that gave himself the purple hearts--two of them from SELF INFLICTED wounds. I wonder how much they are paying that guy that claims Kerry saved his life, because in reality, John Kerry was the one that left him behind...Eh, guess he has the purple heart to go back and get him.

He grabbed a grenade launcher that may or may not have been on the boat, shot it at a rock that may or may not have been there, and either had the shrapnel nick his arm, or he nicked his arm when he was firing the thing, and then he got a Kermit band-aid put on the 'wound' and nominated himself for a purple heart. Then he threw the damn thing back.

I think there's another story where he had rice from a rice paddy embedded in his glutius along with some more shrapnel. I am normally dead, dead serious when it comes to what members of our armed forces do, and I normally have excessive helpings of the utmost respect for them, but there cannot be a worse bad joke than this man running for potus on his service in Vietnam. I keep telling people that someday, we'll all look back at the notion of John Kerry running for president, and laugh our balls off.

I was retardedly drunk a couple weeks ago, and I ran into a friend from high school who is a staunch Republican, one of the worst I've ever known. He was wearing a "real American Hero" shirt, and I threw an arm around his shoulder and explained to him how "I am a real American hero" and how we were both going to "not only knock this 'asshole' Kerry out of his race for the white house" but we were gonna "teach he and Max Cleland how to properly fucking throw grenades". I'm evil.

Beligerently drunk, mind you.

[APlaneTookOff]

speaking of laughing at John Kerry's failed bid for the presidency:
http://www.time.com/time/press_releases/article/0,8599,692562,00.html

[Brian]

I forgot that you were also in Vietnam with Kerry. Thanks for supplying the "true" facts for everyone.


speaking of laughing at John Kerry's failed bid for the presidency:
What the fuck? Last I checked the election was in November and has yet to be decided.

[Adam]

What the fuck? I've got to put up with the shit till November? For fuck's sake, forum closing earlier than planned...

;)

[blisstheabyss]

I forgot that you were also in Vietnam with Kerry. Thanks for supplying the "true" facts for everyone.


What the fuck? Last I checked the election was in November and has yet to be decided.

brian, i have to say that you barging in on this thread telling us not to slander kerry is as hypocritical as anything ive ever seen on this board.

i'd also like to say that i don't know how anyone could even think of voting for kerry after zell miller's speach.

but my favorite thing HAS to be from kerry's speech last night, saying that the "RNC stands for Really Not Compassionate". outside of the fact that that is just really bad, how could you claim that bush is not compassionate when he was one second away from tears, talking about the families of lost soldiers.

[Sean]

What the fuck? I've got to put up with the shit till November? For fuck's sake, forum closing earlier than planned...

;)
Just wait until the debates occur. That's a shitstorm waiting to happen.

[APlaneTookOff]

I forgot that you were also in Vietnam with Kerry. Thanks for supplying the "true" facts for everyone.

You're welcome. There're more at www.swiftvets.com and in the aforementioned Unfit for Command book.

[Brian]

brian, i have to say that you barging in on this thread telling us not to slander kerry is as hypocritical as anything ive ever seen on this board.
How so? Slandering a public figure is ok?

I didn't write the Bush list I posted and admit that some of that list can not be confirmed as true, while even others I now realize are false.

I'm not going to support slander of anyone, whether I agree with their position or not.


i'd also like to say that i don't know how anyone could even think of voting for kerry after zell miller's speach.
Are you serious?! The guy who told an interviewer he "wished he lived in the times when you could challenge someone to a duel"?

How can you take anybody who says shit like that seriously?

Zell Miller is a conservative republican who realizes that if he actually switched over and became a republican nobody would give a shit about him, and there's no way he would have been offered to give the keynote speech. He's much more valuable to the GOP as a democrat. Can that be agreed on?

He also was able to cash in on most peoples' ignorance that just about every bill contains items that have nothing to do with the bill's main proposal and are "snuck in there" in order to get them passed along with the generally more mainstream and accepted focal points of the bill.

He conveniantly ignored this when talking about all the things Kerry is against based on his voting record.

[Intoxicated Ricochet]

Kerry's a joke. The only reason he's even on the bloody ticket is the fact that he's a veteran. I do not doubt the valor and merit of his service (although I personally know veterans who would regardless), but the fact that he is using it as a trump card for everything is plain stupid. There were a host of better candidates that were more equipped from a liberal point of view - Dick Gephardt comes to mind, with his extensive Capitol Hill experience.

Zell Miller's a psycho and the last of the "Georgia democrats" who were against integration and pro-segregation, etc. But he did speak the sad, blunt truth. Some complained of his abrasiveness, but I think it's no different in the way Michael Moore and some of the hardcore leftists like to convey their beliefs.

[blisstheabyss]

How so? Slandering a public figure is ok?

I didn't write the Bush list I posted and admit that some of that list can not be confirmed as true, while even others I now realize are false.

I'm not going to support slander of anyone, whether I agree with their position or not.


You didn't try to put a stop to the Bush slandering that was going on in last weeks thread (and all of the countless ones before it). Regardless, you call it slandering, i call it fact. He did receive two purple hearts for self-inflicted wounds. He's campaigning on his service in Vietnam - i think it's crucial to examine his service (particularly considering the vast majority of his fellow veterans see him as unfit for president). If you're opposed to "slandering a public figure", i disagree, but you're a moderator and you have the final say. at least be consistent.

As for zell miller, i'm not suprised that it had people in an uproar, but his voting record is as crucial as his service in vietnam. outside of the fact that he has attempted to thin out our national defense (the last thing we need during a time of war), his inconsistency is very relevant and i'm glad that it's become an issue.

[Brian]

This is futile but...


He's campaigning on his service in Vietnam - i think it's crucial to examine his service
Right. It is crucial. In turn let's examine his opponent's service...oh...wait.


particularly considering the vast majority of his fellow veterans see him as unfit for president
A vast majority, really? Could you provide evidence of this? The swifboat vets don't constitute "a vast majority of his fellow veterans."


If you're opposed to "slandering a public figure", i disagree, but you're a moderator and you have the final say. at least be consistent.
I will try to be more consistent in the future. As I said, I am against slander of anyone, and if anyone wants to spout off opinions about W and claim them to be facts and not opinions, I will call them out as well.

[blisstheabyss]

This is futile but...


Right. It is crucial. In turn let's examine his opponent's service...oh...wait.


A vast majority, really? Could you provide evidence of this? The swifboat vets don't constitute "a vast majority of his fellow veterans."


I will try to be more consistent in the future. As I said, I am against slander of anyone, and if anyone wants to spout off opinions about W and claim them to be facts and not opinions, I will call them out as well.

fair enough. im talking about the veterans who toured with kerry. i should have been more specific.

kerry is campaigning on his service in vietnan; its his crowning jewel. nobody questioned kerry's patriotism in the rnc (in fact, he was praised for it twice). it doesn't bother me that bush didn't go to war. it didn't bother me that clinton didn't go to war. i think it's great that kerry served in vietnam, but if he's going to use that as his selling point, it had better hold up.

[Padrino]

fair enough. im talking about the veterans who toured with kerry. i should have been more specific. And again, in talking about the people who actually directly served with Kerry, Brian is still quite right.

The SBVT are about as deceitful as Michael Moore in their claims, editing tricks, and allegations. 2 great examples of the masses not doing their own research and buying into deceit.

[Brian]

kerry is campaigning on his service in vietnan
I'll agree that it was a poor idea to place so much emphasis on his service in Vietnam.


nobody questioned kerry's patriotism in the rnc (in fact, he was praised for it twice).
Yeah, I know. I watched it. But it's obvious lip service.



it doesn't bother me that bush didn't go to war. it didn't bother me that clinton didn't go to war. i
The difference I see here is that Clinton was opposed to the war - as many were, so he refused to go. Bush, however, was a member of the national guard who simply stopped showing up when it came time to take a drug test. He was then given an honorable discharge. I'll go out on a limb and say that someone without the connections he had would not have been given an honorable discharge under those circumstances.

[blisstheabyss]

But it's obvious lip service.


No doubt about it. We are talking about politics here. Kerry reacted last night as if the whole RNC was trying to discredit his service, which isn't the case.



The difference I see here is that Clinton was opposed to the war - as many were, so he refused to go. Bush, however, was a member of the national guard who simply stopped showing up when it came time to take a drug test. He was then given an honorable discharge. I'll go out on a limb and say that someone without the connections he had would not have been given an honorable discharge under those circumstances.

You have a right to your opinion and I respect and understand that. As I see it, though, whether you support a war or not doesn't justify draft dodging. My soon to be brother-in-law is in Iraq right now. He didn't support the war, but he went without complaining. Regardless of the circumstances, dodging the draft is less than patriotic and honorable.

Everyone has things from their past that they'd rather hide and I try not to be too judgemental on alot of these things. Like I said, I'm more bothered by the fact that his campaign was riding on this, which you need no convincing of.

See, guys, debates don't have to be ugly.

[Brian]

See, guys, debates don't have to be ugly.
No, they don't. Thanks for helping to show this.

:)

[Hooby]

Kerry's a joke. The only reason he's even on the bloody ticket is the fact that he's a veteran. I do not doubt the valor and merit of his service (although I personally know veterans who would regardless), but the fact that he is using it as a trump card for everything is plain stupid. There were a host of better candidates that were more equipped from a liberal point of view - Dick Gephardt comes to mind, with his extensive Capitol Hill experience.

Since when is he using it as a trump card?

I haven't seen one goddamn commercial with him talking about his service or the purple hearts.....

If anyone's using it as a trump card, the GOP is.....simple as that.


On a side note, did anyone watch The Daily Show last night......they had coverage of the RNC and Zell. That man is just insane.....he was on hardball later on, and Matthews shot a nice snide comment at him, and he went balistic.....and I shit you not, said to Matthews after a heated debate "I wish we lived in the day where you could challenge a person to a duel".

[chago04]

Since when is he using it as a trump card?

I haven't seen one goddamn commercial with him talking about his service or the purple hearts.....



Do you watch TV? :bashful:

[Hooby]

Do you watch TV? :bashful:

Enough of it to know that what he said is bullshit.....at least here in Minnesota it is.

[silas]

Duels with guns, eh. Now jousting, that's a great way to resolve problems.

[3ebfan11]

im not sure if anyone mentioned this, but what would happen if arnold shwarznegger said "dont be economic blackie men"?

[cokehead1138]

im not sure if anyone mentioned this, but what would happen if arnold shwarznegger said "dont be economic blackie men"?

Um...I'm not sure. Perhaps you should ask one of you junior high teachers. It's likely people would be very upset and stop supporting him...But then he could just say he didn't...Oh wait, he isn't a democrat. :duh:

[3ebfan11]

my point was that sex is larger than race, yet you can be sexist but not racist.

[cokehead1138]

my point was that sex is larger than race, yet you can be sexist but not racist.

I knew what you were getting at, but I don't find it that sexist really.

[tonyrox]

I knew what you were getting at, but I don't find it that sexist really.

I agree. Making a comparison between a grown man and a girl, would have to be stretched pretty far to be considered "sexist" in my book.

If he had said, "Quitcher bitching, you all sound like stupid women." That would be sexist.

But girly men, come on.

[chago04]

I agree. Making a comparison between a grown man and a girl, would have to be stretched pretty far to be considered "sexist" in my book.

If he had said, "Quitcher bitching, you all sound like stupid women." That would be sexist.

But girly men, come on.
And funny. ;)

[APlaneTookOff]

Are you serious?! The guy who told an interviewer he "wished he lived in the times when you could challenge someone to a duel"?

How can you take anybody who says shit like that seriously?

cause Matthews is a fuck, watch the interview, Zell was getting attacked.

and the statement was unreal, and i laughed, hard :D

[Padrino]

Zell Miller is a quack, and the attack by Mathews, which it was, was very justified IMO, after Miller's distortion-laced speech.

[Hooby]

Zell Miller is a quack, and the attack by Mathews, which it was, was very justified IMO, after Miller's distortion-laced speech.

it was an attack, but not nearly as bad as Miller made it out to be......

I wouldn't want to be in a duel with him, god knows he's probably 200x's the marksmen I am.... :flag: